This is part two of a three part conversation between Viola Larson and Bill Crawford. It is being posted on my blog, Naming His Grace, but will be linked to at Bayou Christian Blog. Our third posting with address the question “What hope for the Future?”
Again this is - on Bill's part - a discussion about something theoretical. No part of this document should be considered in anyway as a declaration of final intent, or renunciation of jurisdiction.
"How do we go about upholding one another?"
Bill: Anyone who really knows Viola (I must confess that I do only through her writings and mutual acquaintances) believes she is a faithful follower of Jesus Christ. I would find it a little presumptuous for someone like me to suggest a manner in which I could “uphold” her. None the less this is our call as Christians. I have found it important in this journey to try to avoid judging the faithfulness of others on any side of this debate (I can name about 5 sides at this time!). Ultimately the best way that we can uphold one another is to release our institutional bonds upon one another and seek to maintain our relational bonds.
Ultimately those who will finally Journey separately from the PCUSA are at the mercy of those who will stay. If those who are journeying are in the grip of a Call from God then it is for those who stay to have the ultimate power to release with or without acrimony. Journeyers can only remain in relationship with those who remain if they choose to allow journeyers to do so. Like all relationships freedom is a prerequisite. It is a function of our current state of affairs that I have already had to discuss with my wife the possibility of our unemployment. Many who will stay think we are off having a jolly time tilting at windmills, they would do well to appreciate the danger we face as a result of our conviction to follow Christ. We may journey with joy but it is also with dutiful purpose.
Conversely for those who leave there needs to be great care. To take a Journey one must have a desire, and if any stand in the way of that desire they often become viewed as an obstacle. Obstacles are usually removed, gone around, or gone over. I am still not sure how we will negotiate this matter. How do journeyers state their need for holiness and their conviction of the presence of apostasy without offending the sensibilities of those that are left behind? I believe at this time the only hope is to endeavor to try. I will be honest here; as I have been with Viola, I am beginning to believe that the “more” faithful option looks like it might be leaving (O the times we live in). If the journeyer can avoid burning bridges, and shooting the wounded then they will have been faithful to the hope for ongoing relationship.
Viola: Now, I am wondering if I should come up with a different adjective for those who stay): Perhaps “standers,” or “non-journeyers,” or maybe even “walk aloners.” I do respect Bill and I am encouraged by what he writes on his blog, besides anyone who fishes among alligators should be respected. But kidding aside, I believe that, after all, this may be the hardest part of this writing project. Asking those who stay to release the institutional bonds of those who journey as a means of upholding journeyers is in some ways asking them to perform an unfeasible task. The reason is simply because we are part of an institution that includes all shapes, sizes and shades of Presbyterians.
Presbytery Council Committees are not made up of just the orthodox reformed but they include a host of others including Progressives. Certainly, I do believe that the orthodox in the church, who are staying, need to make it as easy as possible, if they are able, for those who truly desire to leave and affiliate with another Reformed body to keep their property. Questions about keeping vows aside, God calls us to peace and not to constant turmoil.
Beyond releasing the other to another part of the body of Christ, treating each other with dignity and respect as brothers and sisters in Christ is very important. But, I believe the most important aspect of upholding each other is seeing the other in relationship to Jesus Christ. I cannot call the other person unfaithful if I see them following the call of Jesus Christ, while upholding the faith of the church universal, whether standing or journeying.
I like this statement by Bill, “Like all relationships freedom is a prerequisite.” It sounds like Bonhoeffer. Although Bonhoeffer is writing of living in a Christian community, I believe his words apply to the relationship between those who stay and those who leave. “Because Christ has long since acted decisively for my brother, before I could begin to act, I must leave him his freedom to be Christ’s; I must meet him only as the person that he already is in Christ’s eyes. This is the preposition that we can meet others only through the mediation of Christ.” (Life Together 36)
If others lose their positions, property and future hopes in the midst of following Christ I as a member of the body am called to suffer with them. If others are insulted, isolated and refused positions in their faithfulness to Christ, within a church with a mostly liberal, progressive leadership I as a member of the body of Christ am called to suffer with them. The first set of problems might call for financial assistance, a bag of groceries or a word of encouragement. The second set of problems would certainly call for a private word of encouragement as well as Christian fellowship.
We simply must uphold each other in Christian fellowship.
28 comments:
Bayou,
You write: "I have found it important in this journey to try to avoid judging the faithfulness of others on any side of this debate (I can name about 5 sides at this time!)." I keep meaning to ask, at some point in this conversation or on your blog sometime can you list the 5 sides? That sounds interesting.
I knew this sentence would come back to haunt me but that wasn't the question I feared!
First let me anticipate the other question:
The key word in this sentence is "try" it will occur again in this segment.
And "judging" has many levels of meaning and application. We still need to judge things like "When is it safe to cross the street?" or in my case, "When is it safe to fish with Alligators?"
Briefly the Five sides (I make up new names nearly every time I talk about this so I will put it on my list of things to do):
Progressives
Classical Liberals
Orthodox Institutionalists
Reformed Traditionalists
Reformed Evangelicals
The list is intentionally from left to right but that gets complicated fast. More importantly as you approach from either end towards the middle you find yourself more often deailing with folks who are very Institutionally Oriented.
I could add layers in between and we could debate names for each group. Within those groups you have also Charismatic Reformed, Neo Liberals (Jesus freaks who believe in source Criticism), Neo Orthodox, etc. But broadly those five categories provide some key waypoints as one journeys through the spectrum.
You of course know someone is going to tell you, you left something out, so I might as well be the one. How about orthodox Reformed evangelical?
I am very glad you separated liberal from progressive, I think that is a very important distinction.
However, I just realized that we are looking at this conversation from two very different perspectives. I thought we were talking about the differences between those who are orthodox in faith but staying and those who are orthodox in faith but leaving. You are instead, I think, looking at the whole range of Presbyterian viewpoints.
Many who will stay think we are off having a jolly time tilting at windmills, they would do well to appreciate the danger we face as a result of our conviction to follow Christ. We may journey with joy but it is also with dutiful purpose.
This section Bayou really cuts to the core. As I journey through the ordination process and deal with a Progressive (using your terminology) CPM that seeks to push me out I wonder whether or not the familial cracks that will develop are worth the peace that will come with not having to fight anymore?
Viola,
Let's hold off on that discussion. I tried to write something and wound up with about 20 rabbit trails!
Bill
Ben,
I feel your pain on the first part I'm not sure I follow the last bit:
" wonder whether or not the familial cracks that will develop are worth the peace that will come with not having to fight anymore?"
If you mean that by leaving we will create so much bitterness in the family unit (presbyteiranism) I would say this:
If you were in an abusive alcoholic family and your role there was to be abused, picked on, pointed at for ridicule.
I would counsel you to leave that environment - that would be a painful experience and the family would react in a mean spirited manner - but your long term health would require self care and trusting them over to God.
Does that make any sense in context?
To clarify what I mean by "familial cracks" is that my sister and mother are seeking Ordination and any move on my part to the PCA etc. would cause some ill feelings within the family.
ouch! That would be a matter for trusting God - mightily.
For my part my dad has already left the congregation he grew up in. My mom is still active on the Session of that church. And I am me. It is hitting our family pretty broadly.
It will all become so complex but good boundaries should allow you to make a decision without being any indictment upon your mother or sister - yeah right (I wish that would be true)!
I pray right now that God will grant you wisdom, favor, and great mercy in the season ahead. Blessing you as you try to fly between faithfulness and your earthly covenants.
At times like this I think of the scripture:
it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:31)
Benjamin,
I have a Son-in-law who is a New Testament Professor; a long time ago we worked in apologetics together. That is how my daughter met him. He does not believe women should be ordained and he doesn't particularly like Calvinists, but we are and always have been good friends. Just follow where Jesus Christ is leading you and let him take care of family matters.
I hope of course he leads you to stay in the PCUSA.
I would submit that sometimes obstacles are to be negotiated with.
Let's assume that your journey is on foot (for the purposes of this metaphor). You have to get from one side of the county to another. A large farm is in your path.
Perhaps rather than going around the farm, or blindly barreling across it (with the possibility of being shot in the keester), you ask the farmer for permission to cross. You agree that you'll be careful not to hurt the crops and to do your best to repair any damage you might cause.
Not only have you handled the obstacle, you may have made a friend. At the very least you may have impressed someone with your attitude.
Mark,
I am not sure I should be the one to respond to your comment but I did have a thought. As in the use of biblical metaphors adding extras, to other metaphors often doesn't help it just muddies the water! Or changing the metaphor confuses the issue.
But I will play along. Those who are leaving are not trying to get around, or through or over something they are not a part of. They belong to the farm. And while they are friendly with all the sheep they are worried that, (to use two biblical analogies), the little foxes are eating the grapes on the vine and no one is doing anything about it. Worse still the manager of the farm is allowing wolves to be raised on the farm and they are threatening the sheep.
So some negotiating has to be done in a very careful manner because the departing ones are worried that they might be contributing to the manager, the foxes and the wolves instead of the sheep.
Of course I just have to add that some of us pray that many will stay and stand between the wolves and the sheep.
Both those leaving and those staying have played (are playing) important roles in this "growing experience". Those who have left have made the institution (leaders and, to a lessor extent, those in the pew) aware that there is an issue worth fighting for. Those staying are in a position to help direct the institution back to her anchor.
I am deeply disturbed by those who make the PCUSA out to be "the church" (Benedict already claimed that one). I am equally disturbed by those who imply that anyone, no matter the circumstances/ faithfulness of their presbytery or congregation, must, by definition, be apostate by staying.
I am an inquirer. I do not know if there will be a PCUSA worth being ordained into by the time I qualify. But I am not young. I have learned to watch and wait. And I trust God and wonder if He didn't bring me into seminary "for such a time as this". I will not sacrifice my principles, but I can play games on the triviata. Constant prayer will hopefully allow me to identify which is which.
Althea,
Thank you for your comments. I agree with you and undoubtedly God is working out his own will in all of this. We will keep praying for your discernment.
I do believe there is a chance at a vast re-orientation of the institution.
I also believe it will not occur without a major crisis.
What I fear is this particular institution's ability to absorb crisis (like a 40% membership loss).
Good grief, Bayou! What sort of crisis could you possibly have in mind? It's been a hundred years of major crises, one right after the other, and things just go from bad to worse. Even the liberals of the 1920's would be horrified to see what the PCUSA has degenerated into.
Rev. Brian,
There are many churches in the PCUSA which both offer the sacraments and proclaim the Gospel rightly. They are a part of the PCUSA and they are a part of the visible church.
While there are churches and even organizations within the church which I believe can be called apostate they have not pushed out or overcome Christ's visible Church that exists within the PCUSA.
Rev. Brian,
I meant that to be the answer to the question you put on our first posting.
Brian,
I hear you and remember not everyone knows what we have said on other blogs!
This particular crisis to date already has 12 of the fifty largest congregations leaving and is likely to see at least 50-100 of the healthiest congregations leaving. That kind of spectacular collapse might just wake up some folks.
But and I did say this - I doubt it.
Viola,
I understand that there are faithful congregations in the PCUSA which can be construed as parts of the true visible church. I do not dispute that. I still have many friends in the PCUSA whom I love and esteem.
But you are a connectional church. What is done by one court of the church is to be considered as done by the whole church. That is what the constitution says. You have taken ordination and/or membership vows to that effect. It's no good ignoring the fact, or pretending that you aren't joined by a lawful vow to those elements in the PCUSA which are heretical. It is precisely that joining of light and darkness which the New Testament prohibits. What fellowship hath Christ with Belial? In the PCUSA, apparently it's a fellowship bound by a lawful vow.
Yes, there are courts in the PCUSA which have not done what they should have done. Actually they have not acted at all. But our vows are toward the Confessions and the Book of Order. And I don’t believe that has really changed yet. The final court decision has not been made.
When I see that the GA has adopted statements that deny the Trinity, the unique Lordship of Jesus Christ, that denies the atonement, etc. I will know that the PCUSA has become completely apostate.
And don't get me wrong or for that matter get me started, I know that the PCUSA is playing around with fire when they receive a paper like the Trinity paper and then use it like it was adopted. They are certainly playing with fire when they allow the Presbyterian Women and other women's ministries to keep pushing pluralism and do nothing about it.
But I will still stand with Calvin who concluded on this matter that wherever the preaching of the word and the offering of sacraments “exists entire and unimpaired, no errors of conduct, no defects should prevent us from giving the name of Church.” He adds that no “trivial errors in this ministry ought not to make us regard it as illegitimate.” (Chap.2 Sec.1)
If those many churches who fall in that category, (Calvin’s) have their membership in the PCUSA then the PCUSA is a part of the Body of Christ. Even so, in this case, they are the salt that keeps the denomination from rotting.
So, it is your position that the PCUSA is not rotting? Pray tell what rotting would look like?
The errors of the majority of the PCUSA are not what Calvin would categorize as "trivial."
Denial of the authority of the scriptures, denial of the divinity of Christ, denial of the substitutionary atonement, denial of the necessity of coming to explicit faith in Jesus Christ to be saved, ordination of rank unbelievers to positions of ministry and a refusal to rectify those errors, improper administration of the sacraments, heresy preached from the pulpits every Sunday... You are an intelligent and well informed person, I'm sure I don't need to go on.
And these are the rule, not the exception. The seminaries are hives of heresy. The GA is orchestrated by the crowd in downtown Louisville to get whatever result they want, and if they don't happen to get the result they want, they simply do what they want anyhow and nobody holds them accountable. I personally attempted to file charges against Steven VanKuyken at Mt. Auburn in Cincinnati for performing and claiming a (un)Holy Union was actually a marriage. He stated it was so publicly and in writing. My claim was sidelined and dismissed by the co-stated clerk of the Cincinnati presbytery who was a lesbian and an elder in his church. Me, on the other hand, who was very careful not to violate my ordination vows, they ran out of town on a rail for attempting to do what so many churches are now doing... asking to dismiss in an orderly fashion with property. These are not trivial issues, Viola. They strike at the heart of the gospel.
Rev. Brian,
I was not suggesting that any of those things you mentioned were or are trivial.
I was quoting Calvin and applying his words to those churches which are truly following him.
In fact, I am late answering you because I just finished listening to a CD with my husband of Darrell Johnson, a Presbyterian preacher and professor at Regent College who was speaking to a Pastor's retreat at Mount Hermon. Among those Pastors were several I know, and some I know of, all are godly righteous people who love Jesus Christ yet are in the PCUSA.
I repeat the PCUSA is a part of the external Church of Christ.
And I maintain that it is not. Not taken as a whole.
Viola,
In the old Soviet Union they had a constitution that guaranteed freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion.
Using your logic, the citizens of the Soviet Union were free people and had to be called a free people because it said so on the piece of paper. They could only be labeled slaves of a corrupt state if somebody in authority changed the paper.
And there lies the problem. You are both right even though at times it is hard to see it.
The corruption is of such a significant nature that it should and must alarm the soul, and empassion us to speak and act.
Yet...
We know that even in Babylon there was a remnant of the faithful.
The difference is the fact that; as I have said, remnant theology does not quite apply.
God does indeed hold the whole matter in his Soveriegn hands. He is capable of directing our paths but He also expects us to act according to his commands and this mixing of darkness with light cannot stand.
Those who will stand must choose Radical Renewal - risky renewal - wild acts of obedience must become the bread and water to you.
Those who will journey will need to journey light.
This is why each week in the prayer for illumination I ask for "...the Power of the Spirit that we may hear the Word and for Courage to Obey it."
Bayou,
"We know that even in Babylon there was a remnant of the faithful."
Yes. And (as you note) even though remnant theology doesn't quite apply, I think this does:
“Come out of her (Babylon), my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has
remembered her iniquities."
Rev. 18:4-5
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